Great article - my interest was piqued at its conclusion, in particular. I wrote my dissertation on the importance of stories for human development, understanding, and mental health - on both an individual and broad societal scale. As a result - I wrote a novel as methodology. You can find its sequel https://karijanz.substack.com/p/episodes (if at all interested). The dissertation novel is in publication so it has not been posted but the series as a whole integrates/weaves features and symptoms outlined in the DSM-V into the lives of story characters. It focuses on existential and narrative therapies/theories as well as classic mythology as praxis. Excerpts from my study:
“Myths are healthy, necessary, and growth facilitating while providing structure for the development of meaning in one’s life (Hoffman et al., 2009). Stories are a way of being that evolved to reflect the structure of reality and all its patterned manifestations. A Darwinian-like feature of humanity, mythological interpretations of the world transcend history and have proven to be the most effective path to survival. There are standard occurrences in daily life that are portrayed and acted out universally. It turns out that the stories we tell have exactly the same structure, or core elements, that we see in Western mythology and the classic archetypes (Brunel, 2015). These have been developed as a way to deal with a world that is complex beyond comprehension, and one that often shifts in unpredictable ways.”
“We learn, grow, and understand our own stories through the stories of others, something Carl Jung (2014) believed to constitute a collective unconscious, one that is shared by all. Stories and mythology in Western culture evolved to have a common structure that is made up of the classic archetypes.”
“We all live in a story whether we realize it or not, and it is up to each of us to write it, otherwise we end up with a bit-part, living out the malevolent tragedy of someone else. When our personal story has been denied or rejected, mental health challenges emerge. Healing, then, requires the reintegration of story and self.”
Thanks for sharing! I'd be interested in your publication if you're able to share it (even a doi or link), there's some interesting stuff here. "There are standard occurrences in daily life that are portrayed and acted out universally. It turns out that the stories we tell have exactly the same structure, or core elements, that we see in Western mythology and the classic archetypes". This seems very true to me! And something that I hope to touch on myself in a future post.
It was a fun study to do - I'd only done quantitative work before this. I thought qualitative and especially arts-based research was far from rigorous. I've now changed my perspective!
I'd love to share - it's not yet published online (university of Toronto repository). I imagine it will be soon. I will let you know! It's called Blondie: A narrative existential inquiry
Interesting -- mythology is certainly a fascinating treasure trove.
Reminds me that my parents had a copy of Frazer's Golden Bough on their bookshelves. Never did read much of it -- too young -- but a passage in, I think, the preface provided something of a guiding light: paraphrasing, good men will use mythology and religion to good ends, while bad men will use them to bad ones.
Such guiding lights seem ubiquitous across much of recorded history -- and probably much of the unrecorded portion -- and in virtually all cultures. A favorite parable -- apparently common in Buddhist thought 2500 years ago -- is the tale of the elephant and the blind men:
'Bad men' will never waste a self-serving narrative but I suppose it takes a good narrative to beat them.
Rollo May believed it was the loss of myth in culture that was causing widespread mental illness (and a sickness of society) and psychotherapy emerged to fill that gap. I think he was on to something.
Richard Dawkins in his "The God Delusion" filled up several pages [384, 385] where he listed many of the useful and illuminating insights and proverbs from the Bible. The trick is in separating the wheat and the chaff [Matthew 3:12] ... 😉🙂
Whether Christian or not, the bible is a book of history and many lessons can be learned about human nature and nature, itself.
Everything is a story - even 'objective' science (which, funnily enough, emerged from the Christian bible and the search for truth). Nietzsche, while an atheist, had a lot to say about that.
One of my favourite books -- Generation of Vipers; rather illuminating in itself -- is by Philip Wylie [circa 1940, journalist, author, fiction, & non-fiction] who had said that much of what is in the Bible is "profound psychology and exquisite logic":
"I happen to believe, after much study, hard thought, and a variety of miserable experiences, that the attention of modern man has been so far diverted from nature and reality as to make the even momentary refocus of his eye a difficult proceeding. I can only try—with such faculties and facilities as I possess. I am proud of mankind for his good points. I am deeply concerned over his blindness to his evil attributes. I beg you to attack them with me in a mood of honest urgency and courage, the mood of a man, say, who submits to a perilous operation because his only chance of existence depends upon it.
We have cancer—cancer of the soul. .....
The effect is, of course, alarming. (At least, I am alarmed by it. And I hold that any man, these days, who does not live every hour in a condition of alarm—however detached or icy—is either a traitor or an idiot.) The electron tube, the locomotive, the internal combustion engine, the suspension bridge, vaccine and the glass giant of Palomar were turned over to the cruel bumpkin of the Middle Ages and his pal, the naked bushman leaping around his tribal fire. True, those characters were stuffed into good waistcoats and somewhat circumscribed by municipal law -- but inside their heads they were living fossils—obsolete in the presence of their accouterments — intact specimens, in so far as science had anything to do with their psyches. A few suits of clothes, some money in the bank, and a new kind of fear constitute the main differences between the average American today and the hairy men with clubs who accompanied Attila to the city of Rome. ...."
I will have to read this man's work. Reminds me a little of Heidegger . . . actually, the 19th and 20th century existentialists in general - many of which laid out their philosophical ideas through fictional works.
Big fan of the theory and the paper, insofar as one can be for academic stuff.
I feel like you got the descriptions turned around here(?):
Openness, which involves cognitive exploration of abstract and semantic information, and is associated with the experience of apophenia (inaccurate pattern matching, as in psychotic delusions); and Intellect, which involves exploration of perceptual and sensory stimuli, and is linked to intelligence/IQ.
👍🙂 I hadn't had much time to read your posts when I'd commented earlier, but on a more thorough skim they are certainly "intriguing" -- cybernetics being a rather durable concept, and my claim to fame and fortune. 🙂
ICYMI, you and/or your other readers might be interested in a couple popularizations, a few backgrounders:
But maybe more into your bailiwick, you might have some interest in an observation by Konrad Lorenz -- in his Civilized Man's Eight Deadly Sins -- which more or less motivated my career choice, and which pertains to your observations on various psychological pathologies:
"The analysis of the organic system underlying the social behaviour of man is the most difficult and ambitious task that the scientist can set himself, for this system is by far the most complex on earth. .... Far from being an insurmountable obstacle to the analysis of an organic system, a pathological disorder is often key to understanding it. We know of many cases in the history of physiology where a scientist became aware of an important organic system only after a pathological disturbance had caused its disease. [pg. 2]"
Arguably, transgenderism may well qualify as THE "pathological disturbance" that provides important insights into how we all develop our senses of self. As well as curing those unfortunates.
But while I can't say that I've yet read your linked article on a "Cybernetic Theory of Psychopathology", I have it book-marked, and seem to have found a non-paywalled version:
Somewhat en passant, I remember borrowing (but never returning or actually reading ...) an earlier (1960) book titled, "Psycho-Cybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz:
Finally, somewhat apropos of your wider theme of "your interest in stories", and in the context of the recent meltdown of a ChatGPT/Bing application, it seems that what's missing there is any sense of "self" that motivates that application, any coherent and "sane" set of goals. Seems that it is still little more than a golem, a clockwork orange -- both of which encompass a few cautionary tales or perspectives:
"In a prefatory note to A Clockwork Orange: A Play with Music, [Burgess] wrote that the title was a metaphor for 'an organic entity, full of juice and sweetness and agreeable odour, being turned into a mechanism'. ...."
I like the idea of understanding human biology/psychology by understanding how it fails, and to some extent this is what I'm doing with this series. Your idea of applying this heuristic to transgenderism is an interesting one - I hadn't really considered gender from this perspective, or from the perspective of cybernetics. I suspect a deeper study of the cybernetic goals and strategies of males vs females would highlight some very clear differences. Evolutionary psych seems to be doing something like this, though not using the language of cybernetics.
"it seems that what's missing there is any sense of "self" that motivates that application, any coherent and "sane" set of goals."
Yes, this gets to the heart of why stories are important. Without a narrative framework we struggle to make sense of our (and others') goals, actions, and their consequences. I believe this is why people develop PTSD - they get stuck on why the incident happened, what they should have done differently, etc., and essentially can't 'finish the story' in a satisfying way. The job of a therapist is to help them rewrite the story to give it a satisfying conclusion.
I've just started to read that Psycho-Cybernetics book I'd mentioned earlier -- written by a plastic surgeon in fact, though now deceased.
But he starts off by talking about self-image which probably ties in with both transgenderism and your perspective on stories -- probably some "feedback" from perceptions of how others see us and their influence on how we see ourselves:
Interesting though rather murky phenomenon and process, though one that can, like most, go off the rails. Reminds me, have you ever seen Woody Allen's "mockumentary", Zelig (The Chameleon Man)?
Can't say that I've ever seen it myself, only a few sections on YouTube, and read a few reviews and articles about it. But seems to be Allen's commentary on the current "zeitgeist", and describes the title character as one who easily picks up and emulates those around him to the point of losing himself. From the Wikipedia article:
"We are infinitely pliable. That's the thesis of Zelig, Allen's wisest film, which has much to say about the way a person can be bent and contorted in the name of acceptance. Its ostensibly wacky conceit ... is grounded in an emotional and psychological reality all too familiar to shrug off as farce."
Couple of links you might be interested in, including one to the related phenomenon of imprinting:
I've had a busy week, so haven't had a chance to respond to you properly yet - but I will soon! If you don't mind me asking, what got you into cybernetics? Is your work in this area?
I'd had an interest in electronics in high school that was probably enhanced by that book of Wiener's (Human Use of Human Beings). Eventually took a two-year diploma course in electronics -- probably equivalent to an Associate's Degree in the US -- with a focus on control systems.
Followed by some 30 years -- before the mast -- designing, installing, and repairing electronic systems for a wide range of industries -- forestry, automotive, & marine. Retired now so have some latitude to delve into wider applications -- like psychology and society. 🙂
👍🙂 En passant, what's your background? Therapist? You seem, from a quick skim, pretty knowledgeable about the DSM-5, and have some cogent criticisms of it, as well as interesting ideas how to fix it.
Related to which, and since I didn't see them in your list of Substacks you're reading, you might be interested in these:
Fascinating! Thanks for your thinking, research and writing on this topic. I found you through some work I'm doing exploring Cybernetics in Leadership.
As a psychologist I've often struggled with the lack of a unifying framework and your point about most psychotherapeutic approaches being reinterpretations of the same few ideas really resonated.
I'm glad you found it helpful! I intend to circle back around to this topic again in future, I think it's an important one. How have you seen it applied in leadership?
I work in regional community leadership development and we're exploring systems leadership through a cybernetics lens. Some great questions posed by ANU in collaborative work with the Menzies Foundation. Things like:
What skills will be effective for leading
change in these complex and algorithmically
mediated environments?
Will those who lead change be those in traditional leadership positions?
How do we lead change not just in corporations and organisations, but
Interesting - I can definitely see the value of a cybernetic perspective in all of this. Nice to see a fellow Aussie on Substack, too! Good luck with it all!
Great article - my interest was piqued at its conclusion, in particular. I wrote my dissertation on the importance of stories for human development, understanding, and mental health - on both an individual and broad societal scale. As a result - I wrote a novel as methodology. You can find its sequel https://karijanz.substack.com/p/episodes (if at all interested). The dissertation novel is in publication so it has not been posted but the series as a whole integrates/weaves features and symptoms outlined in the DSM-V into the lives of story characters. It focuses on existential and narrative therapies/theories as well as classic mythology as praxis. Excerpts from my study:
“Myths are healthy, necessary, and growth facilitating while providing structure for the development of meaning in one’s life (Hoffman et al., 2009). Stories are a way of being that evolved to reflect the structure of reality and all its patterned manifestations. A Darwinian-like feature of humanity, mythological interpretations of the world transcend history and have proven to be the most effective path to survival. There are standard occurrences in daily life that are portrayed and acted out universally. It turns out that the stories we tell have exactly the same structure, or core elements, that we see in Western mythology and the classic archetypes (Brunel, 2015). These have been developed as a way to deal with a world that is complex beyond comprehension, and one that often shifts in unpredictable ways.”
“We learn, grow, and understand our own stories through the stories of others, something Carl Jung (2014) believed to constitute a collective unconscious, one that is shared by all. Stories and mythology in Western culture evolved to have a common structure that is made up of the classic archetypes.”
“We all live in a story whether we realize it or not, and it is up to each of us to write it, otherwise we end up with a bit-part, living out the malevolent tragedy of someone else. When our personal story has been denied or rejected, mental health challenges emerge. Healing, then, requires the reintegration of story and self.”
Looking forward to your new series!
Thanks for sharing! I'd be interested in your publication if you're able to share it (even a doi or link), there's some interesting stuff here. "There are standard occurrences in daily life that are portrayed and acted out universally. It turns out that the stories we tell have exactly the same structure, or core elements, that we see in Western mythology and the classic archetypes". This seems very true to me! And something that I hope to touch on myself in a future post.
It was a fun study to do - I'd only done quantitative work before this. I thought qualitative and especially arts-based research was far from rigorous. I've now changed my perspective!
I'd love to share - it's not yet published online (university of Toronto repository). I imagine it will be soon. I will let you know! It's called Blondie: A narrative existential inquiry
I'll keep my eye out for your next post.
Interesting -- mythology is certainly a fascinating treasure trove.
Reminds me that my parents had a copy of Frazer's Golden Bough on their bookshelves. Never did read much of it -- too young -- but a passage in, I think, the preface provided something of a guiding light: paraphrasing, good men will use mythology and religion to good ends, while bad men will use them to bad ones.
Such guiding lights seem ubiquitous across much of recorded history -- and probably much of the unrecorded portion -- and in virtually all cultures. A favorite parable -- apparently common in Buddhist thought 2500 years ago -- is the tale of the elephant and the blind men:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
Seems of particular relevance these days ... 🙂
'Bad men' will never waste a self-serving narrative but I suppose it takes a good narrative to beat them.
Rollo May believed it was the loss of myth in culture that was causing widespread mental illness (and a sickness of society) and psychotherapy emerged to fill that gap. I think he was on to something.
Agreed. 🙂
Richard Dawkins in his "The God Delusion" filled up several pages [384, 385] where he listed many of the useful and illuminating insights and proverbs from the Bible. The trick is in separating the wheat and the chaff [Matthew 3:12] ... 😉🙂
Whether Christian or not, the bible is a book of history and many lessons can be learned about human nature and nature, itself.
Everything is a story - even 'objective' science (which, funnily enough, emerged from the Christian bible and the search for truth). Nietzsche, while an atheist, had a lot to say about that.
Amen to that.
One of my favourite books -- Generation of Vipers; rather illuminating in itself -- is by Philip Wylie [circa 1940, journalist, author, fiction, & non-fiction] who had said that much of what is in the Bible is "profound psychology and exquisite logic":
https://vultureofcritique.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/philip-wylie-generation-of-vipers.pdf
"I happen to believe, after much study, hard thought, and a variety of miserable experiences, that the attention of modern man has been so far diverted from nature and reality as to make the even momentary refocus of his eye a difficult proceeding. I can only try—with such faculties and facilities as I possess. I am proud of mankind for his good points. I am deeply concerned over his blindness to his evil attributes. I beg you to attack them with me in a mood of honest urgency and courage, the mood of a man, say, who submits to a perilous operation because his only chance of existence depends upon it.
We have cancer—cancer of the soul. .....
The effect is, of course, alarming. (At least, I am alarmed by it. And I hold that any man, these days, who does not live every hour in a condition of alarm—however detached or icy—is either a traitor or an idiot.) The electron tube, the locomotive, the internal combustion engine, the suspension bridge, vaccine and the glass giant of Palomar were turned over to the cruel bumpkin of the Middle Ages and his pal, the naked bushman leaping around his tribal fire. True, those characters were stuffed into good waistcoats and somewhat circumscribed by municipal law -- but inside their heads they were living fossils—obsolete in the presence of their accouterments — intact specimens, in so far as science had anything to do with their psyches. A few suits of clothes, some money in the bank, and a new kind of fear constitute the main differences between the average American today and the hairy men with clubs who accompanied Attila to the city of Rome. ...."
I will have to read this man's work. Reminds me a little of Heidegger . . . actually, the 19th and 20th century existentialists in general - many of which laid out their philosophical ideas through fictional works.
Thanks for this!
Big fan of the theory and the paper, insofar as one can be for academic stuff.
I feel like you got the descriptions turned around here(?):
Openness, which involves cognitive exploration of abstract and semantic information, and is associated with the experience of apophenia (inaccurate pattern matching, as in psychotic delusions); and Intellect, which involves exploration of perceptual and sensory stimuli, and is linked to intelligence/IQ.
Good catch, I did mix these up - thanks! Fixed.
You're talking my language ... 😉🙂
You may have some interest in my kick at that kitty, particularly at the idea of "rationalizing gender":
https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/i/64264079/rationalized-gender
Thanks! I'll check it out
👍🙂 I hadn't had much time to read your posts when I'd commented earlier, but on a more thorough skim they are certainly "intriguing" -- cybernetics being a rather durable concept, and my claim to fame and fortune. 🙂
ICYMI, you and/or your other readers might be interested in a couple popularizations, a few backgrounders:
"1953: When Genes Became 'Information' ":
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867413004534
Which links to:
"Oxford Academic; Journal of Heredity | Kalmus: Cybernetical Aspect of Genetics"
https://academic.oup.com/jhered/article-abstract/41/1/19/911432
But maybe more into your bailiwick, you might have some interest in an observation by Konrad Lorenz -- in his Civilized Man's Eight Deadly Sins -- which more or less motivated my career choice, and which pertains to your observations on various psychological pathologies:
"The analysis of the organic system underlying the social behaviour of man is the most difficult and ambitious task that the scientist can set himself, for this system is by far the most complex on earth. .... Far from being an insurmountable obstacle to the analysis of an organic system, a pathological disorder is often key to understanding it. We know of many cases in the history of physiology where a scientist became aware of an important organic system only after a pathological disturbance had caused its disease. [pg. 2]"
Arguably, transgenderism may well qualify as THE "pathological disturbance" that provides important insights into how we all develop our senses of self. As well as curing those unfortunates.
But while I can't say that I've yet read your linked article on a "Cybernetic Theory of Psychopathology", I have it book-marked, and seem to have found a non-paywalled version:
https://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/DeYoung-2014-CB5T-JRP.pdf
Somewhat en passant, I remember borrowing (but never returning or actually reading ...) an earlier (1960) book titled, "Psycho-Cybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz:
https://www.amazon.ca/Psycho-Cybernetics-Updated-Expanded-Maxwell-Maltz/dp/0399176136/
Finally, somewhat apropos of your wider theme of "your interest in stories", and in the context of the recent meltdown of a ChatGPT/Bing application, it seems that what's missing there is any sense of "self" that motivates that application, any coherent and "sane" set of goals. Seems that it is still little more than a golem, a clockwork orange -- both of which encompass a few cautionary tales or perspectives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#Theme_of_hubris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(novel)
"In a prefatory note to A Clockwork Orange: A Play with Music, [Burgess] wrote that the title was a metaphor for 'an organic entity, full of juice and sweetness and agreeable odour, being turned into a mechanism'. ...."
I like the idea of understanding human biology/psychology by understanding how it fails, and to some extent this is what I'm doing with this series. Your idea of applying this heuristic to transgenderism is an interesting one - I hadn't really considered gender from this perspective, or from the perspective of cybernetics. I suspect a deeper study of the cybernetic goals and strategies of males vs females would highlight some very clear differences. Evolutionary psych seems to be doing something like this, though not using the language of cybernetics.
"it seems that what's missing there is any sense of "self" that motivates that application, any coherent and "sane" set of goals."
Yes, this gets to the heart of why stories are important. Without a narrative framework we struggle to make sense of our (and others') goals, actions, and their consequences. I believe this is why people develop PTSD - they get stuck on why the incident happened, what they should have done differently, etc., and essentially can't 'finish the story' in a satisfying way. The job of a therapist is to help them rewrite the story to give it a satisfying conclusion.
I've just started to read that Psycho-Cybernetics book I'd mentioned earlier -- written by a plastic surgeon in fact, though now deceased.
But he starts off by talking about self-image which probably ties in with both transgenderism and your perspective on stories -- probably some "feedback" from perceptions of how others see us and their influence on how we see ourselves:
"Oh, would some Power give us the gift
To see ourselves as others see us!
It would from many a blunder free us,
And foolish notion:
What airs in dress and gait would leave us,
And even devotion!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_a_Louse
Interesting though rather murky phenomenon and process, though one that can, like most, go off the rails. Reminds me, have you ever seen Woody Allen's "mockumentary", Zelig (The Chameleon Man)?
Can't say that I've ever seen it myself, only a few sections on YouTube, and read a few reviews and articles about it. But seems to be Allen's commentary on the current "zeitgeist", and describes the title character as one who easily picks up and emulates those around him to the point of losing himself. From the Wikipedia article:
"We are infinitely pliable. That's the thesis of Zelig, Allen's wisest film, which has much to say about the way a person can be bent and contorted in the name of acceptance. Its ostensibly wacky conceit ... is grounded in an emotional and psychological reality all too familiar to shrug off as farce."
Couple of links you might be interested in, including one to the related phenomenon of imprinting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprinting_(psychology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUW8JsLDsNo
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/15/movies/film-zelig-woody-allen-s-story-about-a-chameleon-man-034845.html
Though moot of course how much bearing that has on transgenderism, but at least seems to provide some useful parallels.
I've had a busy week, so haven't had a chance to respond to you properly yet - but I will soon! If you don't mind me asking, what got you into cybernetics? Is your work in this area?
I'd had an interest in electronics in high school that was probably enhanced by that book of Wiener's (Human Use of Human Beings). Eventually took a two-year diploma course in electronics -- probably equivalent to an Associate's Degree in the US -- with a focus on control systems.
Followed by some 30 years -- before the mast -- designing, installing, and repairing electronic systems for a wide range of industries -- forestry, automotive, & marine. Retired now so have some latitude to delve into wider applications -- like psychology and society. 🙂
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
👍🙂 En passant, what's your background? Therapist? You seem, from a quick skim, pretty knowledgeable about the DSM-5, and have some cogent criticisms of it, as well as interesting ideas how to fix it.
Related to which, and since I didn't see them in your list of Substacks you're reading, you might be interested in these:
https://everythingisbiology.substack.com/about by a "Biological Psychologist" and
https://karijanz.substack.com/about
"I'm Kari - author, therapist, fuck-up, and success story.
The Dirty Realist explores social/cultural topics and mental health in a raw and brutally honest way."
Fascinating! Thanks for your thinking, research and writing on this topic. I found you through some work I'm doing exploring Cybernetics in Leadership.
As a psychologist I've often struggled with the lack of a unifying framework and your point about most psychotherapeutic approaches being reinterpretations of the same few ideas really resonated.
I'm glad you found it helpful! I intend to circle back around to this topic again in future, I think it's an important one. How have you seen it applied in leadership?
I work in regional community leadership development and we're exploring systems leadership through a cybernetics lens. Some great questions posed by ANU in collaborative work with the Menzies Foundation. Things like:
What skills will be effective for leading
change in these complex and algorithmically mediated environments?
Will those who lead change be those in traditional leadership positions?
How do we lead change not just in corporations and organisations, but
at a global, national, and community
levels, and within ourselves?
How is leading change across and
between all these arenas possible?
Exciting stuff!
Interesting - I can definitely see the value of a cybernetic perspective in all of this. Nice to see a fellow Aussie on Substack, too! Good luck with it all!